tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post4279653392074809356..comments2024-03-13T23:09:50.841+00:00Comments on Vaults of Nagoh: Old School: Not for the Likes of ~You~Chrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04072272223837426211noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-27823748812374836832011-11-21T06:23:17.582+00:002011-11-21T06:23:17.582+00:00I agree. I think we've been holding back too ...I agree. I think we've been holding back too much in order to sanitize our image and it's been harmful in the long run. No creativity, no balls: no audience. <br /> <br />I think a lot of the objections to this idea are coming from puritan christian types.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-78239952772201174022009-08-01T22:12:24.454+01:002009-08-01T22:12:24.454+01:00But you can leave those - drool, chomp - tasty sna...But you can leave those - drool, chomp - tasty snacks right here.Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-51528023839262723132009-08-01T22:04:35.256+01:002009-08-01T22:04:35.256+01:00"Hi kids! I was born during the Ford administ..."Hi kids! I was born during the Ford administration."<br /><br />Whipper-snapper, get your Scandinavian Metal ass off my retirement community's golf course!Dwayanuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388657516129827977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-46118229453128777282009-07-30T22:02:40.249+01:002009-07-30T22:02:40.249+01:00Um…no, I was not talking about Vampire the Masquer...Um…no, I was not talking about Vampire the Masquerade. I guess I should have defined better what I meant when I said “intimate, edgy, role-playing.”<br /><br />By “intimate” I mean the dictionary definition as in: close acquaintance; pertaining to one’s innermost nature; characterized by informality and privacy. By “edgy” I meant “pushing the envelope beyond the superficial what’s-okay-to-everyone.”<br /><br />Let me give some specific examples of each:<br /><br />There is nothing INTIMATE about on-line gaming; there is no closeness that comes from gaming with someone you do not see. On-line gaming creates separation and alienation in members of a community. Yes, one may be communicating and cooperating MORE THAN, say, playing a console game by oneself, but it is not the same as having a conversation with a friend or family member, let alone playing a face-to-face game.<br /><br />Likewise there is nothing particularly EDGY about games like World of Warcraft, as my teenage nephew can attest to. There is never a moral dilemma presented like “do you kill the prisoners” or “do you save your companions or save yourself.” On-line gaming provides no risk, other than wasted time (which, since its pay-per-month, I guess equals wasted money). Table-top gaming, as opposed to computer games, has the ability to make us care or feel more deeply.<br /><br />If you don’t want that in a game, then you don’t need to play RPGs. And I think it IS possible to make the games more appealing by making them more “adult.”JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-28787895495821543832009-07-30T14:49:14.977+01:002009-07-30T14:49:14.977+01:00Want to get "young people" interested in...Want to get "young people" interested in the game?<br /><br />It's really simple, and it doesn't involve publishing any sort of type of work or darker and edgier nonsense, or sending LotFP out to frighten the squares.<br /><br />Put the game in front of them! As said above, run a game for them, let them experience it and either love it or hate it.<br /><br />More so, stop selling the game to just gamers. Right now, unless you know what you're looking for (i.e., you're already a gamer), you'll never find any of these things. By the time somebody's already a gamer, they've already chosen the game they like, and chances are it's not going to be LL, S&W or Osric.<br /><br />Sell the book through book stores, hobby stores (not gaming stores), toy stores, supermarkets, and anywhere somebody who's not already a gamer might look and decide to give it a whirl. Even if only 1% of the people who see it actually buy it, you'll do much better than trying to sell to a gaggle of fickle gamers.<br /><br />Get them before they know they're gamers!Hamlethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05135081554790749914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-78062406286803827452009-07-30T14:36:22.460+01:002009-07-30T14:36:22.460+01:00"If you want more people playing your favorit...<i>"If you want more people playing your favorite games? Sit down and start up a campaign! It's how its always worked, and you don't have to 'spin' the game to make it happen."</i><br /><br />Blammo.<br /><br />I have a friend of mine who I've known for about twelve years now. We went to film school together and he was a roommate of mine after college for about six years. During all that time, he knew I played RPGs and had no interest in them (there was a lot of good-natured mocking that went on as well).<br /><br />Then about six months ago he started dating another friend of mine who was in my Castles & Crusades game, and he sheepishly asked if he could show up for a session and play. He rolled up a fighter, bought him some mail, a shield, and a mace, and started crushing skulls. When he defeated a minotaur champion at the end of the first session, he was <i>hooked</i>.<br /><br />By the same token, another boyfriend of one of my players would hang out and just chill with us while we gamed. He also eventually picked up a pre-gen I made up for him (since he was a fighter, under "Special Abilities" I wrote simply "You Kick Ass" - that caught his attention...) and once he got into the fun of slicing open bad guys and engaging in all sorts of adventurous hijinks, he was also <i>hooked</i>.<br /><br />Although I <i>HATE</i> Gaming/Religion comparisons, I have to say that "conversion", such as it is, works best for both when done at a personal experience level. Asking the interested party "What are you looking for?" and then coming back with "This is how you can get what you want" will work for you a shockingly high percentage of the time.Jack Badelairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10932441028544500024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-34641918995751046302009-07-30T13:38:55.846+01:002009-07-30T13:38:55.846+01:00If you really want to get younger kids into the ga...If you really want to get younger kids into the game, don't make em google Swords and Wizardry or whatever. Run a game for some visiting cousins, your kids, or some friends of the family on a rainy day. If one of them really catches the spark, teach 'em to DM. They'll start corrupting their friends, and the hobby is a force of nature from there on out.<br /><br />When I first started DMing in the 5th grade or so (I actually started playing AD&D when I was 7-8 in my dad's campaign), I taught two of my friends from school to play using the Dragon's Den boxed set. One of my friends' younger brothers was intrigued enough to first join our group, then run his own game and teach five or six more players. Three of whom started up their own campaigns and recruited even more, and my own had increased in size to six or seven by that point...<br /><br />While that campaign didn't spark the *entire* D&D tradition in my hometown - there were a couple other groups around I hadn't heard about at the time - the act of running a boxed game in 5th grade for three people did end up bringing thirty or forty people into the hobby. As far as I know, that particular chain reaction is *still* picking up players.<br /><br />If you want more people playing your favorite games? Sit down and start up a campaign! It's how its always worked, and you don't have to 'spin' the game to make it happen.Big McStrongmusclehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07067031012393190130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-66278182609282965432009-07-30T09:28:40.872+01:002009-07-30T09:28:40.872+01:00I know your heart is in the right place, but readi...<i>I know your heart is in the right place, but reading through this article makes me think of those comedic boardroom ad campaign meeting parodies...</i><br /><br />So the tone and theme came off exactly as planned. /inscrutable<br /><br />I suppose I was suggesting the OSR try to fake integrity for the sake of sales, instead of actually retaining its' existing hobbyist authenticity. <br /><br />Tree. Wrong. Barking. Yep.<br /><br />Fek it. The larvae can google, and old school games are there if they want them. Evangelising a bunch of flighty, faddy oiks is too much like hard work. <br /><br />Me <== shut up and roll the dice. ;)Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04072272223837426211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-5007769611055861032009-07-30T09:01:55.077+01:002009-07-30T09:01:55.077+01:00Badelaire has a point. While I agree that going fo...Badelaire has a point. While I agree that going for the sex'n'violence as a marketing ploy would be silly, by the same token people shouldn't worry about sanitizing their work or keeping it "family friendly" either.<br /><br />Just do what comes naturally and make the best material you know how. If it's hardcore filth, so be it. If it's fluffy bunny feelgoodiness, so be it.<br /><br />Just don't posture in an attempt to grab an audience. Be an artist. Be a craftsman. Don't be a suit.JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-67337564926874190192009-07-30T05:38:37.242+01:002009-07-30T05:38:37.242+01:00Having been around when D&D came on the market...Having been around when D&D came on the market, and having initially been opposed to it (I was into wargaming, a fantasy RPG just rubbed me the wrong way). What changed my mind about the game was simply this. I was talked into trying it and found out how much fun it is. The secret to getting youth into it is the same recipe as was used to convert wargamers. Get them to try it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-20003131212741323052009-07-30T05:10:39.798+01:002009-07-30T05:10:39.798+01:00For the record, I just googled "Carcosa RPG&q...For the record, I just googled "Carcosa RPG" from my iPod touch and, in fact, found a crap-ton of blog-drama. Go figure. <br /><br />And I'm even posting this comment from my iPod. How modern of me.Jack Badelairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10932441028544500024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-75399452054366698762009-07-30T05:10:38.534+01:002009-07-30T05:10:38.534+01:00Of course, we could leave off with all this recrui...Of course, we could leave off with all this recruiting nonsense -- especially by trying to pull transparent stunts like these -- and <i>play</i>.<br /><br />If people (of <i>any</i> age) are interested, they'll come play too. <br /><br />By the same token, we're better off setting out to write and play and promote what we want, not to create some image to try and lure people in. This is a hobby, not a political platform.<br /><br /><br />And here I swore I was never touching this mess again. <br /><br />Failed my charm save, I suppose.taicharahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02213053468697534564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-3707226210059180492009-07-30T04:34:49.394+01:002009-07-30T04:34:49.394+01:00"AND it's a third thing to have intimate,...<i>"AND it's a third thing to have intimate, edgy role-playing with live human beings."</i><br /><br />Intimate, edgy role-playing...you mean like <i>Vampire: the Masquerade</i>?<br /><br />Look at it this way; despite its reputation, <i>V:tM</i> tried to do exactly what you're looking at something like Carcosa to do; take role-playing games away from their "safe-place" and make things interesting and new again for another generation.<br /><br />Looking back almost 20 years later, and we see how well that worked out. Yeah, it was edgy - it also got picked up by a bunch of <i>The Crow</i> obsessed dorks who thought they were being anti-establishment by wearing a lot of black lipstick.<br /><br />So by all means - promote "Old School D&D" as a game that's all about pre-teen rape and cannibalism and human sacrifice and doing the nasty with demons or whatever. Yeah, you might get a few of the "younger crowd" to check it out. <br /><br />But you'll probably also get a bunch who google "Carcosa" from their iPhones and what turns up isn't really cool, dark, edgy stuff; rather, it's a bunch of blog and forum posts written by middle-aged nerds arguing over Dungeons & Dragons.<br /><br />Yeah, that sounds appealing to your average sixteen-year old...<br /><br />(And for the record, I don't care a fig one way or another about Carcosa. I never read it, I only read snippets of it posted for review, and I'm fairly certain it's not as loathsome as many make it out to be.)Jack Badelairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10932441028544500024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-54191306530594547042009-07-30T04:03:34.528+01:002009-07-30T04:03:34.528+01:00An excellent post! I think there is something to ...An excellent post! I think there is something to the idea of not writing just-for-kids, in an attempt to bring them into the fold. I loved that the game was obviously written with a non-childish view point in mind when I was a child myself. I've always hated kids stuff. The toy version of anything seemed insulting to me as a kid.<br />I don't think James Raggi would be a bad choice as OSR outreach spokes monger.<br />just imagine.<br />"kids, this is James. He's here today to tell us about role playing back in the day."<br />James: "RAAAAAAARHHHHHHH! Snort! GGRRRRRRRR!"<br />children: "Huzzzah! Lead us to victory, Mighty Lord!"E.G.Palmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10229893317543621720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-19528719872762953652009-07-30T03:12:24.274+01:002009-07-30T03:12:24.274+01:00On the other hand, Badelaire, it's one thing t...On the other hand, Badelaire, it's one thing to have access to the streaming port, it's another thing entirely to do so. AND it's a third thing to have intimate, edgy role-playing with live human beings.<br /><br />Recently ran my nephews (age 15 and 12) through a B/X game (their first time with a traditional pen-and-paper RPG). For all Halo3 and Call of Duty 4 (not to mention films like Constantine) might have jaded them...well, they weren't. They thought it was awesome, they played till 3am and they were crazily perplexed when trying to figure out what to do with goblins they'd taken prisoner ("we can't just KILL them!"). When actually put into the perspective of their characters (as opposed to an FPS console), they really got hit hard. Or rather "bit" hard...with the D&D bug.<br /><br />They really wanted to come over and play more this weekend, but I have in-laws visiting. However, I am going to give them a copy of Labyrinth Lord.<br />: )<br /><br />Oh...and their mother (who remembers D&D was once associated with Satan), is NOT especially approving.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-40231868099179252362009-07-30T02:09:02.143+01:002009-07-30T02:09:02.143+01:00I know your heart is in the right place, but readi...I know your heart is in the right place, but reading through this article makes me think of those comedic boardroom ad campaign meeting parodies where a bunch of middle aged advertising executives fumblingly attempt to figure out how to market their product as "dope" or "fly" or "tight".<br /><br />This whole "remember when you were told something was bad for you so you wanted it" mentality just shows how out of touch people contemplating this idea are. Carcosa, for all its debatable depravity, is shruggingly banal when you compare it to your average hardcore porno website. The promiscuity of information on the internet means that nothing so laughably "edgy" as a pen and paper RPG, no matter its content, will ever tantalize or draw in any but the most naive kids these days. When your average 12 year old can watch streaming hardcore porn on their iPhones, an RPG written by some 30-something that talks about underage sex, or cannibalism, or whatever, is pretty much a snooze-fest.<br /><br />Again...why do the 30-somethings feel the need to market their niche-in-a-niche idea to the XBox generation?Jack Badelairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10932441028544500024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-36400681361989970772009-07-30T01:44:11.672+01:002009-07-30T01:44:11.672+01:00Yes, indeed. Warhammer, and Dungeons & Dragons...Yes, indeed. <i>Warhammer</i>, and <i>Dungeons & Dragons</i> were very much what the "older kids" were doing, and I lost interest in each successively because they lost their edge in my perception (relative to alcohol and girls). I still remember how <i>Rogue Trader</i> blew my mind in my early teens, but even now I regard regard these franchises as fairly childish pursuits, slightly better than collecting <i>Transformers</i>...<br /><br />Yeah, pretty sad of me to categorise things like that, but the lessons of youth are hard to put away. Making these things "cool again" has largely been a function of readjusting my own attitudes towards them.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-47371738197342696892009-07-30T00:21:52.000+01:002009-07-30T00:21:52.000+01:00Well said! :)Well said! :)Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-7770963277782528762009-07-29T23:35:06.490+01:002009-07-29T23:35:06.490+01:00>>I'm not saying Jim should be the model...>>I'm not saying Jim should be the model and/or mascot for a putative OSR youth outreach program.<br /><br />Hi kids! I was born during the Ford administration. I've never had a drink of alcohol, haven't played a console video game since 1993, and believe that downloading free music is morally wrong. Let me tell you about something cool...JimLotFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8346997917591558747.post-78900323443298286582009-07-29T23:24:50.094+01:002009-07-29T23:24:50.094+01:00While I disagree with some of the suggested method...While I disagree with some of the suggested methods presented, I find this post fascinating, insightful and altogether masterfully written.<br /><br />It's not like any of the youth of today would want to play an RPG based on car-jacking, drive-bys, drug dealing, organized crime and gun fetishes, right? <br /><br />My 14 year-old complained quite tellingly so a few years back: "Why are all of the good games rated M?" as he held a copy of GTA.<br /><br />Let's face it, our hobby is quite simply far too abstract a concept for the minds of today's youth. There's no way they could grasp it.<br /><br />(Just playing along there!)Sham aka Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14329116400656617173noreply@blogger.com